A SELF Sale should never be something impossible to obtain

Discussion Forums General Zazzle Discussion
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While I am more than happy to help one of my customers - (who doesn’t after helping someone love getting that “ohh that is just perfect” response) - it boggles my mind how Z makes it next to impossible to not only pay me that little extra for the sale but to acknowledge my efforts by labeling the sale as a SELF.

I mean that is part of what goes into the sale process, no?   I have assisted the customer have I not?  I should not have to join a kimmicky program or throw links to the moon.  They came to me!  They have asked me to spend my personal time for help making something for them from my store!   

Never mind Z has asked me to monitor a messaging system - which uses personal time - ok I guess I can do that when I can.  But to not recognize the fact that I have turned that personal time into a sale?  I am totally being taken advantage of.  What is the point to just see NONE or Third Party as the royalty?  You have to be kidding me!    

Perfect example

The customer messages and asks me a question - I respond

Then needs more help with personalization - which I then do and send a link with my ID code

Then wants to know how to purchase - which then I have to explain that process including entering sale coupon

All this over 2 days.  A lot of personal time to spend for what?  To see the sale come through as third party or none!  I would have received basically the same earnings, a few pennies less had the messaging system turned off and less aggravation on my part.   

Then there is the example of a personal friend who wants something custom or asks for something from my store I put together and we go back and forth.  I email them a link and that shows up as NONE sale! 

It is not that I am looking for the extra pennies as much as the POINT of seeing the SELF referral in making the sale!  Customers come to me and asked for help.   Once I do the work for them and create a link to purchase that link should override any cookie nonsense that Z spins on us.  I am so tired of being told that we have to tell a customer to clear their cookies in order to receive the self status referral.  I have NEVER had a company ask me to do this.  NEVER!  I have purchase from other POD or other commission base companies and never been asked such a stupid thing!  I am sorry to use that word but it is really rude for Z to think we are going to ask customers to clear their cache and cookies before clicking on our links!  So ridiculous.  I am sorry my rant may sound petty but Z has made it petty by refusing to give us designers the SELF referral status when earned.   Fix the problem or create another status for these type of links!  There has to be a way for time spent on sales like these to be self recognized because the way it is now it is unobtainable!  If you cannot label them as Self as they should be then create a fourth code like Mail.  Then designers will at least be reward for their personal time!   You have asked us to monitor a mailing/messaging system, now at least give us something back in return that will reward us for our personal time. 

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I feel your pain. For myself, I only spend time on customisations if I am happy in that moment, to donate my time. It can be a plus if their new design can then be something new in the store, others can go on to purchase. But if I am not inclined to do this I always attach the LIve Designer Link and say they can get live design help that way. This way we still get a sale without the custom time spent. I also would never ask a customer to clear cookies etc. I accept the efforts I put in may or may not result in a sale, and often times the royalty on that sale is less than a dollar. 

Something you may want to consider as a work-around is increasing the royalty on the item you design to cover the ‘time’. You could explain before you proceed with custom work that the end result will reflect a fee for custom design.

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 Z should give us referral earnings on a link sent through chat.

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I too have been there. At this point I just won’t do custom design requests unless I can do it as a template and put it in the marketplace - not unless I feel like volunteering my time - because it’s just not worth it. @CreativeLeahG 's suggestion to publish it separately with a much higher royalty is a good one, but I think I would feel way too awkward presenting that to the customer.

It seems to me that Zazzle MUST have some sort of system in place that allows the LIVE designers to get paid for their time helping customers. I don’t know what that system is, but I’m relatively sure those folks aren’t just donating their time. There may be some reason they can’t do this (or don’t want to), but if Zazzle could extend that system to us for when we help customers, I’d be much more inclined assist with custom design work. It always strikes me as odd that Zazzle is willing to pay a LIVE designer to help someone customize my template, but they’re not willing to pay me to do the same thing. Anyhow, until they come up with a better system, I’ll just keep referring people over to LIVE unless I’m feeling particularly benevolent or can make their request as a marketplace template.

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I completely agree. If it’s something that can be sold again on the marketplace or something that takes just a minute or two to create, I will do the design request. I used to enjoy doing custom design requests, but I’m not going to do it anymore if it’s not going to result in a referral. It’s bad enough having to constantly redirect customers to customer service when they have a question that isn’t design-related. It’s not worth it to me to spend tons of time on custom designs and not receive a referral.

In the “about” section of my store, I instruct customers to email me if they have questions about a design. While most customers don’t see it, I have had several customers email me with their inquiries.

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Zazzle refers itself as a third party in order to give itself a larger slice of the pie. The messaging system was implemented so that any links sent through it would be referral links for Zazzle, not for you. You can easily put your own e-mail address in your shop description and ignore the Z messages. I’ve had people contact me via the Z messaging thing, and I’ve sent them to another POD where I won’t get screwed. Zazzle is in business to make money, and so am I.

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This is what all the hub bub was about when chat was first implemented.   From the beginning the whole thing seemed like a way to reduce referrals paid.  The few requests I have had, I ask the customer to contact me at my personal email and then we can proceed with any request they have.   Only one has resulted in a sale and even that referral cookie somehow didn’t take.  No other company I know of makes the affiliate sales so hard to get. Sad!

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While I understand the general notion and support it, I feel like this is a one sided view of things. Here is the other side.

If I refer your product, it is me who brings the customer to you. You would not have had that conversation that lead to the customization or the sale. So why should I as the affiliate who refers the product give up my commission? That doesn’t seem fair as a lot of affiliates also spend a lot of time, effort and in many cases money to promote your product.

Now I know that Zazzle is taking a large chunk of this by being the affiliate. But there are still plenty of actual affiliates who would lose their income.

The better approach would be to give the customer the option on the website to pay extra for customization help or creating new designs, which then goes to the designer.

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Except that it seems likely that you are already giving up your commission, you just never even know it.

Let’s say you refer a client to one of my products - except that they want something changed and contact me via the messenger. I make the change and send them a link back to that ‘new’ product. That product is now likely third party referred to Zazzle - not me as the designer or you as the original referral. Because the referral process is less than transparent I cannot confirm this and Zazzle seems quite unwilling to even broach the subject, but I’ve seen ‘self’ referrals dematerialize when someone decides to even just make a change on their own (orders something in one size, changes mind, cancels orders a larger size within less than 1/2 hour of the original order) and other designers have documented that self referrals disappear when using the message system, so I cannot imagine that it wouldn’t work that way with your referral cookies too. It could certainly be tested though…  

The solution - to everyone’s dissatisfaction would be to ensure that the customer’s original cookie is durable… that their customer’s original entry point is the defining cookie that cannot be overwritten for at least some period of time - a week at least maybe?

I’ll admit I have no idea what the technical aspects of this are… but at very least someone who does know could at least try to tell us??? Anyone - programmers? Is this achievable? 

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Yes, I have seen this happen myself. However, in the scenario described in this post originally the affiliate would lose the commission because the designer helps the customer.
In the scenario you describe there could be several reasons. One would be the customer experienced issues with his device and used another to reorder. Another could be that the customer has an option enabled that deletes all cookies and temporary data when they close their browser.
There is also the possibility that approaching Zazzle customer service overwrites our referral cookies.

I have been much happier with my referrals for my own products since I joined the promoter program.

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This is why it shouldn’t be a referral we hope to get as a reward for extra time spent with a customer, but a fixed or hourly price made known upfront and added to the royalty when the sale goes through. In which case it is no longer hit or miss but some sort of a contract. I am not ready to elaborate right now how it could be implemented but it surely can be.

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There would always be the odd things that could affect a cookie… but then it would rare, which certainly doesn’t appear to be the case at the moment. Whether or not Zazzle has intended it, by not telling us much of anything they make it appear that the deck is seriously stacked in their favor, while also sometimes chastising designers for not being diligent enough in their self promotions or for getting frustrated when we feel we’re too often losing what we actually have worked for… 

One tires of it - I personally am very appreciative of third party promoters. Much of my business comes legitimately from them - either affiliates or ads that Zazzle uses and I am happy for it and have often expressed such BUT I do put in work to promote myself too and when I know that work has actually borne some fruit it’s highly disappointing to see it disappear in an instant. It does make me feel a bit cheated. 

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@J32Design  This is yet another reason why I think that there should be a different system for compensating the designer for doing custom work - something that works differently from the referral cookie. I really wonder how the LIVE designers are compensated. Since the little “need help designing this?” popup says there’s no charge with a purchase, it seems like it has to be some sort of percentage system. But if a hunk goes to the original designer, a hunk goes to the affiliate, and a hunk goes to the LIVE designer - that doesn’t leave much to pay for the actual production of the product, so I dunno.

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I agree a “customer pays” system should be implemented for custom work and customization help by the designer. Secondary content should also be included in this customer pays system in my opinion. It has always bugged me that this is taken off my royalty.

I was always under the impression that live designers get paid by the customer who pays extra for the service.

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I think it would be great if Z paid us for every time we responded to a customer via chat.  It would show us that Z values our time spent with a customer to ensure that they get proper service.

I happily help the few customers that contact me.  My success rate with the sale is high.  I rarely will get the self referral though.  If a customer supplies there email address voluntarily I use that for all communication.  I explain that sometimes I have found that the Z chat system does not always send out email notifications that I have responded to there request when I reply and if they are OK with it, I will continue to respond to them via email.  This does allow me to attach my rfid and has resulted in 2 self referrals.  If they don’t provide a personal email, I don’t ask for one.

But I would be very pleased with a quarter for every response I give to a customer.  I think many would appreciate some compensation for turning us into customer service reps.

PC

…

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Referrals are, by definition, a “finder’s fee” Zazzle pays as a reward for driving traffic to the site but over time we’ve come to think of them as bonus for doing custom designs and that’s just not the intent of the affiliate program. If someone contacts you via chat they have already found their way to the Z domain and might have someone else’s cookie, Z’s cookie, or no cookie at all stuck on them. If they are asking for custom work you can either A) just do it because a sale with no referral bonus is better than no sale at all or B) treat the request as any other business would and tell them it’ll be $xx non-refundable for your time on the custom work, payable via Paypal or Venmo or CashApp or whatever, with no obligation to buy the end product. That way you are paid whatever you think is right for your time regardless of cookies or sale discounts or other misc fees that could be deducted by Zazzle, and if they do buy, you also get your standard commission (royalty) from Z.

I totally understand the frustration of doing custom work and not getting anything extra for your time directly from Z, but I think we need to remember that this is a totally separate thing from referrals.

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The OP’s complaint may have been your scenario, but forget being rewarded for doing custom work - we and affiliates are at times actively penalized for it… If the person did come to you via your own clean link or referral link, interacting with them and sending them any sort of new product via that chat will nullify that… So, you bring the customer in, do extra work for them and your ‘reward’ is to have Zazzle take not only your referral but also an extra chunk out of your royalty… ouch. I understand why some people now just refer people directly onto a Live Designer. If Z’s going to take a cut either way, they may as well also do the work. 

In a perfect world, IHMO, we’d all be able to opt in to being at least a semi ‘live’ designer. I would prefer to have rights of first refusal to help a client with my own products. It’s my design and I have all of the original files and I am best equipped to edit it if a client requires something that is non-customizable to be changed. I have a lot of incentive to make sure that the client is happy with the end product. If certain people get compensated for doing the exact same thing, what is stopping them from allowing it for everyone? I don’t think anyone would suggest compensation if the person doesn’t buy at the end - even more incentive to make sure the client is happy.

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I can agree with the idea that there should be a fee for custom design help and it should be automatically added if the request comes through the chat feature and also be separate from referral cookies so as not to overide them.  If this were the standard practice I would have no problem with answering chats and maybe even working with the customer in a collab.  But as it stands I am not inclined to spend what little time I have doing extra work for no extra pay.  I think I will start doing what Leah does and send them to the Live designers.  At least then I still get a sale without the extra headache. 

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@PenguinPower wrote:
but forget being rewarded for doing custom work - we and affiliates are at times actively penalized for it… If the person did come to you via your own clean link or referral link, interacting with them and sending them any sort of new product via that chat will nullify that... So, you bring the customer in, do extra work for them and your ‘reward’ is to have Zazzle take not only your referral but also an extra chunk out of your royalty… ouch.

This is saying using chat to send a link not only causes any existing referral cookie to be ignored but that it’s then treated as a third-party sale with Z as the referrer. Is there any concrete proof of this? Because that is in contradiction to what @Mark   posted here  about a cookie not being able to be overridden by another for 7 days:

A] If a customer has not clicked on any referral links in the past week, clicks on your Promoter or Associate link to start a new session on Zazzle, and

1) makes a purchase right away, then you earn the referral.
2) leaves for period of time but comes back to Zazzle within the same week organically (i.e., not through a referral link), and makes a purchase, then you earn the referral.
3) leaves for period of time but comes back to Zazzle within the same week through a different referral link, and makes a purchase, then you (the original referrer) earn the referral.
4) leaves for longer than a week but comes back to Zazzle organically (not through a referral link), and makes a purchase, then you earn the referral.
5) leaves for longer than a week but comes back to Zazzle through a different referral link, and makes a purchase, then you do not earn the referral.

B] If a customer starts their shopping session on Zazzle organically or via a referral link that is not your referral link, clicks on your Promoter or Associate link during their shopping session, and

1) makes a purchase, then you do not earn the referral.

According to that, if a customer already has your cookie when starting their session on Z, the only way for it to be replaced by Zazzle’s is if they wait longer then 7 days to order something and then pick up Z’s on returning, maybe because they came back via a reminder email from Zazzle. And that’s seven days from picking up the cookie. So it’s technically possible a customer could already be near the end of your protected cookie duration by the time they hit you up on chat so if they don’t order within the next day or two your cookie can be overridden by Z’s (or anyone else’s).

I’m not saying it [a designer losing a self-referral after using chat to send links] hasn’t ever happened, just saying that cookies are complicated and there are legit reasons that could happen so I am not yet willing to take “ interacting with them and sending them any sort of new product via that chat will nullify that” as fact without proof that that is actually the case.

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For what the “2-day” customer wanted, those are things I refer to Zazzle customer service to handle. I am not a Zazzle employee, I’m a free-lance designer. I’ll only spend time on requests that result in a decent wage or a re-sellable version of a current image. I currently probably make about 3 cents per hour (only half joking) designing stuff on Zazzle; one must make up for one’s lack somehow.

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