Corrupted "Cookies"

[ColsCreations]

#1) On 2/26
I ordered a product from another designer (Designer A), using a link with their RF# and tracking code (TC) “THANKYOU”. That order was logged correctly on their end as a 15% referral, with the specified TC.

 * I placed that order using Opera which is my alternative browser of choice that I use when I don’t want to mess up the cookies & cache etc of my every-day browser (Firefox). I have Opera set to clear everything (cookies, cache, browsing history, passwords, auto-fill data, etc..) on every exit. I also use the option, always twice in a row, to manually clear any/all such data before starting a new session, just to be certain I am starting anonymously.

#2) On 3/4
I ordered another product from Designer A, using a link with their RF# and TC of “THANKYOU_from_COL”. That order was logged correctly on their end as a 15% referral, with specified TC.

 #3) On 3/8
I ordered a product from a different designer (Designer B), using a link with their RF# and TC “BenableTest”. That order was logged correctly on their end as a 15% referral, with the specified TC.

 #4) On 3/11
I ordered another product from Designer B, but this time I used the link Benable auto-generates as their affiliate link. I don’t have a screenshot of this, but this too was logged correctly on the designers end, as a 3rd Party Sale (so no referral). Since they did get a small commission from Benable on this sale, the assumption of course is that they were the 3rd party getting the referral.

#5) On 3/17
I ordered a product from another designer (Designer C) in the former Promoter Program. This time I used a “clean” link direct to their product so no RF# in it, but with TC “CC_PP2_TC_test”.  This order was logged correctly on their end as a 35% referral, with the specified TC.

So that is 5 different orders over 20 days, to 3 different designers and 4 different Referrers, all unique links with appropriate RF & TC when applicable. And they all worked out as they are supposed to.

* Note that in between each of these orders (I used Opera in each case) all browser data was cleared many times over. And the same goes for below as well.

That brings us to 4/1, where things get really interesting and why I am writing this detailed post.

I wanted to order one of my newer cards to see how it prints out and being the first day of the new Ambassador program rules, I was just going to use a “clean” link direct to my own product. I ended up ordering & canceling four times …

Order #1) I pasted my “clean” link direct to product directly into Opera, which I had just opened and not viewed any other page in yet. When the sale showed up on my end it was listed as 3rd Party. No way absolutely not was that possible so my immediate reaction was that Zazzle somehow assigned themselves as 3rd Party. I canceled that order.

Order #2) This time, I added the clean link to my own webpage, opened that page in Opera, and clicked the link to my item. That order came up as a 3rd Party sale again. So I canceled that one.

Order #3) This time, I added an RF# link to the product, with TC “RFtest”, to my own webpage. Opened the page in Opera, and clicked the link to my item. That order came up as a 3rd Party sale again. So I canceled that one.

Order #4) Switched tactics here by choosing a different product and a different browser (Brave). Used an RF# link with TC “NewTestFromBrave”. And you guessed it, showed up on my end as a 3rd Party sale. I Canceled.

I was feeling quite aggravated and honestly, pretty negative about Zazzle thinking they were claiming themselves as 3rd Party on these orders. Because what else would one think?

But …

Turns out, Designer A was somehow getting picked up as a 3rd Party referrer on these orders, and with the same TC I had used back on 2/26! How is that possible?  This was absolutely not an issue on my end with browser cookies as I used two different browsers, and every time, was 100% certain in making sure I was starting clean, no cookies, cache, history, stored profiles, nothing … and, as detailed above, there were 4 other orders with referrals logged correctly since I ordered from them on 2/26 with that specific TC. All I can think of is that in addition to whatever cookies are being stored locally on our (and customers’) browsers which we can manage ourselves, there’s also some sort of token being created/stored on Zazzle’s end that we can’t control, and in my case it’s corrupted.  

In my situation yesterday I happened to be chatting offsite while trying to order my card and yes, griping about Zazzle assigning themselves as 3rd Party when there shouldn’t have been one, which is how Designer A was able to realize that uhm, Col, looks like I am your 3rd Party. Makes me wonder how often the referral credits might get bugged like this with virtually no chance of the Designer or the person getting the referral credit ever being able to connect the dots from both ends.

Lots of details here but I wanted to make it very clear that this was not a case of me picking up someone else’s cookie that then stuck with me for the designated period of time and I that just need to “clear my cookies”.  It would be very enlightening to know how this happened, but also, can you fix it please? Nothing against Designer A, but you know, I’d like to be able to order without it showing up in their Referral History.

[tiffjamaica]

That is very interesting and concerning.
I don’t pretend to know anything about how any of this works, but I had an experience on 3/19. I wanted to order some of my own products.  I did what I’ve always done - copy links into a private browser using Chrome. But it didn’t work. The sale came through as “NONE”.  I cancelled. Tried again later - same thing.  
On 3/21 I tried again and it worked the first try and logged as self.  

I wrote to customer service about it.  Nothing they can do - the cookie cutter response.  But if that can happen once, it’s certainly happening more often. 

[Anne]

Wow, Thank You SO much for all the work you put into this, @ColsCreations  !!! Beyond awful what you found. But very good that you did not find Zazzle was the 3rd party!

[MOM]

Posting to follow conversation.

[Connie]

Maybe Zazzle is now linking the cookie directly to your account? So there’s no way to get rid of it?

[Cat_Ritchie]

Very interesting and puzzling. Here’s what I’m wondering. In the Ambassador Agreement it says that referrals will last for 45 days and cannot be overwritten for the first 14 of those days.

3.4.2. Each Referral will be valid for forty-five (45) days. You will earn Referral Commissions for Referred Sales during this timeframe.

3.4.3. During the timeframe in which a Referral is valid, the referred User may be referred to the Site again. If this more recent Referral is made more than fourteen (14) days after the previous Referral, the most recent Referral will be attributed for any Referred Sales that result and earn applicable Referral Commissions accordingly.

I’m wondering how this jives with cookies and/or if these numbers apply to self-referrals as well as cross-referrals. When I first signed up for the Promoter 2.0 program I was incredulous as to how they could track a link with no parameters (a “clean link”) so I asked and was told that if the referral cannot be credited to some other source it’s automatically assigned to the creator. That never entirely made sense to me because if that’s the case what’s to differentiate between a self-referral and no referral?

Well anyhow, if a clean link just translates to a lack of cookies, then there would be no way for it to be valid for xyz period of time, so it could be overwritten by any other cookie. 

It’s probably pointless to speculate about the technology because they’re not gonna share their internal systems with us, but I would like to know if the clean link referrals somehow are good for the same 45 days/14 days as the rf variety.

[8PawsStudio]

@MOM If  I understand the “follow” correctly, there’s another way: There’s an Options menu at the top right (same line as the breadcrumbs) from which you can subscribe.

[Laura]

Yes - “It would be very enlightening to know how this happened”.

[ColsCreations]

I gave it a week, allowing consideration for “first-day bugs” to work out and:

April 7
Ordered from Designer D using a link with MY RF# and TC “TestApril7_FromBrave”, pasted directly into Brave browser, all clean & clear as usual. And while it showed on their end as a 3rd Party sale, I did not get the referral. So who was the 3rd party here? I have to assume it was Zazzle.

April 9
Ordered from Designer C again. This time I used their own Self-Promotion link + TC of “Clean_SPlink_with_TC” which I had added to my own website and then opened with Opera all (clean & clear as usual.) And again, it’s a 3rd Party sale on their end that we have no choice but to assume is Zazzle.

Even if the TC parameter is now somehow voiding Self-Promoter referrals, this should have then been a ref=None sale as there was noone else involved in this order. Who was the 3rd Party?

From the Ambassador FAQs pdf:

The last line supports the first since if there are no cookies, it shouldn’t be a “maybe” it should be an absolutely not. Unless there are “other technologies” at play. Which we know now there are and it’s getting it all wrong. People not getting properly credited with earning the extra Referral commission is one thing, but every time an imaginary 3rd Party is assigned, the Creator loses 35-50% of their Royalty income.

[klstock]

Very interesting.

When you say “Even if the TC parameter is now somehow voiding Self-Promoter referrals”… How would that happen? Is that something someone would have to intentionally code in there to void a TC parameter?

[Laura]

Thank you Cols - Much appreciate your time and determination to understand, and share your continuing observations on this system so we all understand how it works! You truly are a gem!! ✨

[Laura]

Zazzle mods, please confirm you are looking into this - “The last line supports the first since if there are no cookies, it shouldn’t be a “maybe” it should be an absolutely not. Unless there are “other technologies” at play. Which we know now there are and it’s getting it all wrong. People not getting properly credited with earning the extra Referral commission is one thing, but every time an imaginary 3rd Party is assigned, the Creator loses 35-50% of their Royalty income.”

(I used to know how to direct quote but couldn’t find)

[tiffjamaica]

This is eye-opening.  I feel like this is a big mess-up on their part.  I noticed a huge uptick on sales coming in as third party since april 1.  78 sales since April 1, and only 4 have been none referred. And no self referrals. That is not at all how my sales normally go.  I’ll be gathering up some past months data and writing customer service about it now for sure. UGH.

[Scott]

Apologies for the delay. We’ll take a look.

[klstock]

You said in your examples that you have no choice but to assume the 3rd Party is Zazzle, as in each case the designer you purchased from showed each order as 3rd party, yet you did not get the referral for them.

And then you said “but every time an imaginary 3rd Party is assigned, the Creator loses 35-50% of their royalty income”… 

So if Zazzle is being assigned as the 3rd Party, then the 35-50% royalty income that the designer loses, is going to Zazzle?  

[Zorinda]

“Well anyhow, if a clean link just translates to a lack of cookies, then there would be no way for it to be valid for xyz period of time, so it could be overwritten by any other cookie. “

If that’s true, and a clean link means a lack of cookies, Zazzle has every incentive to get in the way of a cancellation and reorder.  You bring in the traffic and if there’s an issue, instead of just fixing the issue like most online stores do without a cancellation, Zazzle cancels it, fixes the issue and creates a new order. The customer clicks a link from one of their helpful emails, that link gets a Zazzle cookie, and the person that brought in the original sale loses their deserved referral and more since the referral would go to Zazzle. I bet that happens a lot with clean links and may be why Zazzle sought to expand the program systemwide.  Why Zazzle cancels and creates a new order becomes clear.  More opportunity to step in front.   It feels like we’re sitting ducks with clean links. It feels icky.

[ColsCreations]

It has always been the case that referred sales entailed a “carve-out”  of 20% of the Creator’s gross royalty.
If it was a Self-Referred sale, the Creator’s referral commission (15 or 35% of order total) more than made up for that.
On 3rd Party sales though, whether Zazzle or other, the Creator simply lost 20%.

Now, the “carve-out” on any referred sale is 35-50% of the royalty, so if it’s 3rd Party you’re taking a sizable hit without making any of it back. If Zazzle is the 3rd Party, that means they are paying the Creator 35-50% less and also aren’t having to pay-out a referrer 15-50% of the order total.

Before (as still now), we had no way to know if the 3rd Party was Zazzle themselves or another Creator/Affiliate. When I’d see a 3rd Party sale I’d just shrug it off as, eh, probably Z but no big deal. But as detailed here, something has gone quite wrong since the 1st and with the stakes being quite a bit higher, it seems imperative to know who the 3rd Parties are and why.

[ColsCreations]

This thread should explain what I meant -

FYI: Tip for Using PP2 “Clean” Links

[klstock]

If Zazzle is the 3rd party, they are paying the designer 35 to 50% less, and also not having to pay out money to the referrer meaning that is a good chunk of money they are saving for Zazzle, and denying the designer and the actual referrer that money. Such as in your examples above where Zazzle claimed it a 3rd party sale but you did not get credited as the referrer. That is quite the err in Zazzles favor!

Many people are reporting that they have noticed that a much bigger percentage of their sales are now listed as 3rd party since the new changes went into effect on the 1st, so it makes me wonder if this is related to what happened in your above examples. 

[ColsCreations]

Many people are reporting that they have noticed that a much bigger percentage of their sales are now listed as 3rd party since the new changes went into effect on the 1st, so it makes me wonder if this is related to what happened in your above examples. .

Yes. And there are numerous comments scattered around various threads from people saying they can no longer get referrals on their own orders or that they had to try and cancel several times before it worked, or that they tried again a day or so later and then it worked, but It’s not always clear whether it came up 3rd Party or None or which type link they were using, What is clear is that the referral system has gone of the rails since the 1st and it’s not a matter of locally stored browser cookies.