Is there the risk of products being deleted due to the use of some Z fonts no longer available?

[Fiorenzo]

Came across a few posts about fonts and copyright infringements and product deletion and in a replay, it was mentioned that designers got apparently products deleted due to the use of some Z fonts no longer available. I could've misunderstood the reply, but since I still have such products listed and don't want to risk having to redo them from scratch, I would appreciate an official statement in this regard so I can act preemptively. Thanks!

[PenguinPower]

Good luck… I’ve asked for clarification on this several times and heard nothing. I’ve proactively changed everything I could find with discontinued fonts, after losing a bunch of products without warning because they used Sugar Plums extra… and that was after I asked what would happen with fonts that were not in the automatically replaced list… I’m not willing to take chances on having more items simply disappear. 

[Fiorenzo]

Thanks for the warning. TBH not what I wanted to hear. Pretty speechless. In this case, they could've simply put the affected designs to private and asked the designers to change the fonts and resubmit. Guess I will have to spend some time solving issues not caused by myself. 

[idraw]

@Fiorenzo

Have you considered that Zazzle is not only protecting themselves from being sued by the font copyright holder, but also protecting shops from lawsuits, by agreeing to “completely remove” the then  “discontinued font” and  any products using those fonts. So in a way, it is better that Zazzle doesn’t just let shops have to individually get legal representation when  any copyright violations happen, regardless of whether it was an oversight by z or a shop..  Hope that makes sense.
Since you said you can still access those “font problematic” products, you may be able to redo them, change the fonts, before they are found and deleted, at which time they are gone and you can’t get them back to change and repost them.

[Fiorenzo]

There are other ways to solve such issues than permanently deleting the designs. Just saying. And I'm only aware of this problem because I just read some related posts by accident. I knew that there were fonts discontinued and that some were automatically replaced, but I didn't know there were designs deleted because Zazzle didn't replace their fonts that may have caused copyright issues. I got no request from Zazzle to change discontinued fonts on my designs because I could risk getting them deleted otherwise. So, yes, apparently I have been lucky enough to be able to act in time. Others were less lucky, it seems.

[PenguinPower]

It would be better if they actually kept the designers informed- good or bad news, before just taking action… there was definitely some time between when they knew there was a problem and when things began to vanish  that they could have put to better use. I specifically asked about fonts that were not initially included in the original replacement scheme and was met with silence… I think this may have also been before they were outed (by a designer… not because they told us) as to exactly why the fonts in question were being removed… 

I have not been impressed in the slightest as to how this was handled or how it is still being handled…  Once the truth was known I tracked down every product I could and swapped to an available font as a precaution- but as I cannot search by font, I can only, laboriously look at each product to find them all and then I have to hope my alterations are not rejected as being too drastic… I may well still have some problematic items out there and there’s no way for me to know, and my stores are, I’m sure, not as extensive as many. The designers didn’t cause this problem… but the support we’ve had in correcting it has been, what certainly feels like minimal.. they saved the two most popular fonts, but left the rest of us to figure it out in our own…

[idraw]

Thinking about it,If you are the copyright infringer, you immediately have to honor the legal requests of the copyright holder. Also legal counsel would instruct you to not discuss the possible pending suit until it is resolved to the satisfaction of the copyright holder. Discussing it with shops would probably only complicate the legal issue, for example with posts on the forums, the internet, etc. I was told when I along with two others, posted about the copyright font issue, that it was being handled legally and not to be discussed on the forum. It is probable that the legal counsel can examine the images, products etc on z servers, to verify that all have been removed, maybe using a specific time limit, which may be why z removed the products quickly.
 Theoretically the font problem products could have been handled in a more acceptable manner, but it is what it is, and now the shops seem to have to handle it the best way they can, by finding the products and fixing them, there could be a more efficient way in my opinion for z to handle it, I agree.

[Fiorenzo]

I agree with you in some aspects but in others, I have to disagree. Such things don't happen overnight. There is always a timeframe to react adequately. If Zazzle had the time and the technical tools to replace some fonts, they could've replaced all other "risky" fonts, too, set the affected products to private, and communicate to the designers that there were issues and that the temporary placeholder fonts had to be replaced and the designs resubmitted. No need (and no justification) to permanently delete anything. Of course, it is what it is now, but this was definitely avoidable. That being said, I dare to claim that every single big business on this planet has had copyright, trademark, and/or patent disputes at least once in their lifetime. It's not uncommon, it happens even to the best ones.

[idraw]

The specific thing I was trying to point out is that…it is probable that the   legal counsel of the copyright holder can an would examine the images, products etc on z servers, to verify that all have been removed, maybe using a specific time limit, which may be why z removed the products quickly.
If that is the case, then z had no other choice than to comply and immediately remove the products from their servers.
in this case, the font copyright holder applied their legal  “right” to copy  against zazzle (and the shops under zazzles venue)
you can’t just set the affected products to private, that won’t satisfy the copyright holders need to protect their copy “right.” It boils down to not having the “right to copy” the font, not having permission.. The copyright holder has the right and choice to demand immediate removal of their font. We don’t get to disagree, they are the rights holder. Z (and possibly affected shops too) could have been embroiled in a deep and expensive legal battle, but chose the more prudent path even tho shops lost products. I am not trying to defend any decisions, just positing consideration of the time limited removal demand may have been the cause of the immediate and “unwarned” removal.

[Fiorenzo]

You probably missed the point where I mention (in my second reply) that Z could've addressed ALL font issues technically on ALL products by simply replacing the problematic fonts with alternate ones and setting the products to private afterward so designers could make final adjustments and resubmit, ideally changing also the reference code so the old product wouldn't be found through search engines anymore. This would have complied with the removal request of the disputed object.

Zazzle had the time to technically address the issue with one (or more, don't know) font, so the question is why they didn't apply the changes to all applicable fonts. Technically it's a no-brainer (senior software engineer here, since the mid-80s). Besides the technical aspect, this is also evidence that there was an adequate timeframe to react, as it uses to be (have also experience in that matter, due to having created and sold clipart and software CDs/DVDs from the mid-90s to the mid-00s).

In terms of the liability of us designers, I don't see any chance that we would be held liable for content that is not provided nor owned by us - the fonts are provided by Zazzle's tool and saved on Zazzle's servers.

[idraw]

Not disagreeing with you or anything said on this topic.
The situation between the holders legal team and Z's legal team has supposedly already been resolved, and so whatever is said here won't change it, even tho sks repeatedly justifiably post about their frustration and inability to get Z to help fix the remaining font product issue.

From my perspective, in reading the various posts, It seems that the serious issue remaining is that some shops still have problem fonts, can't easily  find them to fix the issue and remove/replace the product, aren't being heard when they post, and Z doesn't seem to have chimed in with answers to help them.afaik.

[Fiorenzo]

No worries, we just had some misunderstandings, but the essence is the same. fact is, the whole trademark and copyright thing is a whole mess subject to abuse on both sides. It's nothing new, though, plagiarism and "copyright" theft accusations are reported since ancient times. 

The real issue is, as you said, that designers have not been adequately informed and that the handling procedures are unnecessarily harsh and non-caring toward the designers, despite there are absolutely viable ways to handle these problems better, assuring both compliance with the copyright claims and requests and the protection and fair treatment of the designers. 

I'll start checking and adjusting my designs. It's annoying and time-intensive but still less annoying than having customers buy something and getting informed that the product is unavailable (due to copyright infringement, whatever they get told), or creating them from scratch if they get deleted. Oh well.

[idraw]

You said… .the support we’ve had in correcting it has been, what certainly feels like minimal….left the rest of us to figure it out in our own…

You made two very important points!
Z protected themselves legally but did not seem to follow thru with the product font problem by thoroughly taking care of/assisting all of the affected shops, (who trustingly used the fonts),  in the aftermath. Some shops are having to sort the mess out on their own, it seems, from reading various posts.

[Barbara]

When the font problem happened originally, Zazzle used some sort of algorithm to locate every use of those fonts and to automatically change them to fonts that were close in design, but if you still have them on some products, get in there and fix them before it's too late.

Colorwash's Home

[PenguinPower]

Except they only did the auto replace on a couple of the extremely widely used fonts… there’s still a whole bunch that are up in the air as far as I know.. not replaced, not useable for new products, but not deleted…

[Fiorenzo]

Yep, I have such ones. And quite a few. I thought they just let them be for backward compatibility. Never would I've imagined I would risk getting these products deleted for whatever reason. Which makes no sense because it's not our fault.

[CrazyMermaid]

Is there a list of the fonts causing the problem? I know about Blooming Elegant and the decorative elements? Are there others? This is the first I am hearing about this additional layer of issues regarding Zazzle fonts.

[Fiorenzo]

We talked about it in this forum back in the day, and we named some of the discontinued fonts. There is no official list as I know, and this particular issue was never addressed by Zazzle. It's fairly new to me, too. I have some designs with discontinued fonts but none of them were replaced, and I never imagined they could be subject to deletion, so I didn't take any action.