Public domain images as prints

[andyodell]

I think I have seen this on Zazzle. Is there anything against the rules to sell vintage images that are in the public domain as prints, framed/posters etc. Nothing else added to them, apart from maybe just enhanced for print.

Thanks

[idraw]

@andyodell 

Hi Andy, here’s an answer that might help—-

https://photocopyrightlaw.com/is-profiting-from-public-domain-images-allowed/
This paragraph specifically stands out in the article—-
While profiting from public domain images is permitted, individuals or companies should not falsely claim that they own the copyright in a public domain image. Once a work is released into the public domain, it has no copyright. Unfortunately, these false claims, known as copyfraud, have proliferated.
Some other useful links on the site also.

[andyodell]

Thanks. I just wondered if Zazzle only allows it if some creative element is added. I think I heard this on other POD sites.

[idraw]

I have seen various vintage art without enhancement posted over the years on products, both here and on other POD sites. I just checked zazzle’s user terms,nothing specific stands out about reuse of vintage art. It more or less concentrated on making sure that the person posting is the copyright owner. Unfortunately what is shown on the internet as public domain is not always public domain. Because there is such a gray area between what is public domain and what might still be protected by the heirs of image copyrighted, it could be a very expensive and risky mistake if someone rightfully decides to sue…and wins. So in a way, Zazzle’s cautioned take down notices, while first protecting themselves,kinda sorta possibly protect you in advance of that happening to you.

[Barbara]

What you've seen on other POD's is likely the rule used when you use free images from sites like Pixabay where you have to alter, add to, or otherwise distinguish it from the original. Vintage images in the public domain can be used freely, though you should always check to make sure there isn't a family or legitimate organization that maintains copyright. I have two rules of thumb: (1) It has to be at least a hundred years old and (2) it has to come from a place such as a museum or other such legitimate collection that actually tells you whether or not it's in the public domain. Try a place like The Smithsonian. You'll have a ball there.

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[Windy]

I do not know the Zazzle rules on this, however, I can say, that I very often find multiple designers have created exactly the same postcard from a vintage artwork.  I see this often, as I scan everyday to find postcards for my postcards of the world board at Pinterest. https://www.pinterest.com/ArmchairTravelers/postcards-of-the-world

[jennifer22]

Yes, one of my stores is dedicated to vintage works (VintageSketch). Other than for a few early posts, I've cleaned up all to repair age damage and to enhance for print. I am very careful to source from legitimate sources (e.g., museums) and that the works are in the public domain due to age.

For example, I worked on this one today:

Before -- https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47e2-8ce5-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99

After -- https://www.zazzle.com/vintage_1906_new_york_city_subway_station_jigsaw_puzzle-116889359044868824

ETA: technically it's also OK to sell as-is, but I enjoy cleaning up old works, and this allows my products to be more unique than the generic cut-and-paste type

[Windy]

Nicely done!

[TheodoreCleaver]

Hi Jennifer, I do the same as you on a couple different websites and have begun using Zazzle. Without divulging too much, can you tell me what you think a person could approximately make if they have 1000 prints available here on Zazzle? 

[Barbara]

@jennifer22  You've done a good job!

I do precisely the same thing, trying to restore the images as much as possible. There was a wonderful BBC show called "Fake or Fortune" where they'd periodically restore a painting, after which the true colors and thus beauty of a it showed through. All the dirt and grime certainly wasn't what the artists had painted, but we have it even worse because the images are being reproduced digitally, which adds a further layer of both bad color and digital dirt. The artists deserve better than that.

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[andyodell]

Have you also seen Secrets of the Museum? It's following the daily work at the V&A - some of the restoration work to paintings especially is so well done, but also scary to watch. 

[Barbara]

Is it on YouTube? If so, I can say without first looking that I'll subscribe. Thanks for the info!

Colorwash's Home

[PlayfulPixel]

Fabulous programme. Such passion and artistry.
But why scary?

[andyodell]

Ha maybe scary is the wrong word. I remember they did something to a piece of art having to submerge it in some liquid... just hoping that it was the right thing to do. I would just be scared having that on me. 

[Barbara · Accepted solution]

I went from here directly to my TV (Roku variety) and searched for "Secrets of the Museum," but what I found seemed to not be any sort of official channel. Rather, it was extremely short bits and pieces with a great deal of talk rather than deep information. If anyone knows how I might find the actual shows, I'd be totally grateful. I've run out of "Fake or Fortune" and am finishing up watching Phillip Mould, the art dealer who was involved in the show. I'm about to go into withdrawal.

Colorwash's Home

[PlayfulPixel]

Barbara - it's a British show currently on BBC - there are 3 series.
I don't know where you might be able to view this - probably not on Youtube...

[Barbara]

Well, phooey. As far as I can tell, all the really good history, archaeology, and art programs are done in Britain. American TV is mostly garbage and to the point where we've gotten rid of cable TV. Anyway, if it's a current show, this explains why I was seeing what are likely promos for the show. I'll have to be patient because, eventually, the BBC shows end up on YouTube like "Fake or Fortune," which I'm fairly sure was a BBC production.

Colorwash's Home

[andyodell]

Sorry for the delay in replying to this. It was on BBC, you can watch it on iPlayer if you have access to that, but only the 3rd series is on there at the moment.

[andyodell]

I seem to have accepted a reply as a solution by mistake sorry. Hope the thread stays open.

[andyodell]

I found S01E01 on dailymotion - hope its ok to post the link here - https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7rmcn6 - only one episode sorry but can see what it is like at least. 

[Barbara]

Thanks, @andyodell , but it's too bad the first episode isn't about painting, which has been my passion since forever. As for Apple gizmos, I despise them. Don't ask me why, I just do. I bet, though, if I search amongst the many channels on my Roku TV, I'll find more of what I seek. I'll just imagine it, and it'll come into being. Isn't that how life works?

Colorwash's Home

[andyodell]

This episode has the restoration of a Chinese painting - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo2Z_jH0KYI 😄

[andyodell]

Its filmed kind of sandwiched so it will come back to the painting between other things.

[PlayfulPixel]

Thanks for this. I'm in the UK and have just started watching Series 3. The BBC don't have Series 1 & 2 on Catch up so it's been great to find this. Thank You!

[andyodell]

IPlayer is a BBC thing not Apple, its their own web player with catchup and other shows 🙂 you might have access to it maybe with a VPN or BBC America might have the same shows,

[Barbara]

We don't have VPN, and BBC America for streaming can be had only through our TV provider, but we might have to pay more. Sad, no?

EDIT: I was just talking with my husband and we decided it's time to stop in at our TV provider to see if we can change things without being charged more for it.

Colorwash's Home

[Barbara]

I just found a wealth of BBC art shows by typing "bbc art" into YouTube's search. Sigh of relief. When I settle down this evening, I'll run the same search on my TV.

I assume those of you in the UK know about the broad-reaching "Perspective" series, right? If not check it out.

Colorwash's Home

[PlayfulPixel]

Ha ha - this is hilarious! Thanks for the tip off to the Perspectives series. It was broadcast on ITV (not the BBC) and it seems that whilst you can view it, us in the UK cannot. I can't find it on YouTube (just a trailer) but it does look interesting.. 😊

[Barbara]

Try this: https://www.youtube.com/@PerspectiveArts  I'm subscribed to it on YouTube and should think you'd be able to also. Do you have Roku across the pond? If so, you can watch YouTube on your TV, which is way better than on a computer screen.

As of a little while ago, I have BBC America and am not charmed. It's apparently a pale version of what it is in the UK.

(Pretty soon, Scott will show up to tell us to stick to Zazzle stuff.)

Colorwash's Home

[Windy]

BBC America is worthless. It's mostly car shows, as far as I can tell. I want the BritComs and the mysteries, but there's no way I'm paying for BritBox.

[Barbara]

I didn't find out about the worth of BBC America until I looked at it this afternoon. A few nature shows, and the rest is just old network shows, the few best of which I watched long ago. I'm back to YouTube, which has excellent content that can be found with a bit of searching.

Colorwash's Home

[PlayfulPixel]

Before Scott comes in... nope, video no available in the UK. It's to do with rights etc ,just as lots of the BBC isn't available where you are. No matter, we have plenty of other similar programmes.  Oh, and I watch everything through Amazon Fire stick, including tutorials! Thanks for the info.

[Barbara]

Strange. Perspective is entirely British and you can't receive it but I do?

One last try, going through Waldemar Januszczak, the producer of Perspective and apparently a few other things: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYwpg6LoPL6Psk3g8_SgWdwLZXpi_5-46

Colorwash's Home

[PlayfulPixel]

Are you sure? the link you gave me to YouTube went to Perspective Art (which I've never heard of) and says it's part of Little Dot Studios Network, which I've also never heard of. I've googled Waldemar and seen who he is. That explains why I haven't heard of him. I'm not really an art buff 🙂

The link you just gave me allows me to view the videos. Thanks for that.

[Barbara]

I took an art history course that regularly put me to sleep, but this series is very much on the human side of things. You may find that, art buff or not, you'll enjoy it. Or not, but it's worth a try.

Colorwash's Home

[jennifer22]

FYI -- In case anyone also wants to use the vintage image I posted above -- unfortunately, images of the NYC metro are not allowed on Zazzle, per the metro's request. I was notified by Zazzle and my vintage restoration was removed.

[Barbara]

You're referring to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, right? This is interesting because they periodically have exhibits on loan from other institutions and possibly private individuals. For instance, years back I visited and happened upon an exhibit of Rembrandt paintings, which are surely in the public domain. The museum couldn't claim ownership. I wonder, is it the art itself they've claimed or is it, instead, the photographs of the art?

EDIT: I went to the Met's site and found this statement: "...over 492,000 images of public-domain artworks, available for free and unrestricted use."

Their description: "In February 2017, The Met introduced its Open Access Initiative which makes all images of public-domain artworks and basic data on all accessioned works in its collection available for unrestricted use under Creative Commons Zero (CC0). Now anyone can download, share, and remix images and data about artworks in The Met collection.

Is it possible Zazzle's database hasn't been updated to reflect the above?

Colorwash's Home

[jennifer22]

No, I'm referring to the Metropolitan Transportation Authority.

[Barbara]

I checked your image in the library, and all they say is that they "believe" it's in the public domain. It's possible museums are a better source since they're likely hyper-aware of usage rights for images. Even so, when I go to my favorite source, the Smithsonian, I read down through their descriptions to make sure that they're sure. People are fallible.

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