AI image on the main page? Really?

[DM]

Nice. (Yes, that's sarcasm.) An AI generated image on the main page. I am referring to the poolside bottle of "orange" and a glass with oranges in it. Obviously AI. Hey, Zazzle, what you put on the front page sets the tone for the rest of the site. If you put a crappy AI image up front and center, that means you are happy with crappy images. You have a nigh-unlimited selection of real, talented artists available to you. Maybe commission an image or two. Or have a contest. Something other than AI.

Color me offended.

[Jadendreamer13]

So, I just checked out the image on Zazzle’s homepage. It consists of nice, simple lines and no gradual shading. That leads me to believe that it could be a vector drawing. The only indication that it could be an AI generated image is the text on the bottle under the word, “Orange.” It looks like nonsensical text and perhaps the word, “Orange,” was added later. AI currently has trouble rendering hands and text, among other things, so those items can be giveaways. Regardless of how this image was created, I agree that Zazzle should not feature AI art on its cover. And if it is AI, Zazzle should follow the rules it gives to creators that all AI images should be marked as such.

[CrazyMermaid]

@DM how are you so certain that it is AI. This illustration style is pretty popular and I'm not surprised to see it on the front page of Zazzle.

[DM]

Maybe AI images are so prevalent that people don't see the indicators. As Jadendreamer13 pointed out, the scribbles under the word "orange" is not text. The round thing on the label isn't an orange. The shadow of the bottle isn't correct, because the label isn't obstructing the light coming through the bottle. The orange in the drink is bent nearly 90 degrees, and there is a part of an ice cube merging through it. The orange slice on the rim of the glass is just stuck there, not cut along one of the naturally occurring lines. The perspective of the straw is wrong. The shadow of the plate isn't correct. 

There's probably more, but that's just looking at it quickly. Sarah_H, the use of an AI to detect whether or not an image was generated by AI was funny, so thanks for that.

[KeegansCreation]

Yup. It has some errors that are unique to AI. And some choices a human would not make, especially a human trying to get done in a hurry to meet a deadline. As you point out, the circle on the bottle label is not an orange slice. A human would have simply copied the slice on the glass and put it on the label rather than draw a whole new thing. 

[Sara_H]

[KeegansCreation]

It does look like AI to me, AI Image Detection Result notwithstanding. On the one hand it looks like a vector drawing. On the other hand it looks even more like what happens when you ask AI to simulate a vector drawing. I have done such simulations many times in Midjourney and this is the sort of thing that results. My next step is to take it into Illustrator and re-trace it with the pen tool. An involved image like this would take me several hours to re-draw. Here are the things I would change:

1. The bottle of Orange needs to have actual text besides the word "orange". The text is the mishmash that happens when AI simulates text. I would also add a type of alcoholic beverage that "orange" is. And I would put an orange slice on the label. It's currently just a dotted circle.
2. The bottle of Orange should not have a stripe down the middle of the shadow.
3. The straw in the glass has what looks like it's meant to be a shadow but also looks like an incomplete reflection.
4. There are bits of misplaced blue in the glass. There is also some misplaced orange. The water reflections showing through the glass shouldn't be yellow.
5. The placemat these items are sitting on has a badly rendered pattern. This pattern would be easy to do properly in Illustrator, so easy that only an AI could get it so wrong.

I have no problem with AI and use it myself for Zazzle. But it is not yet ready to go right off the render. Repair work must always be done. That might not be the case next year but it is the case now. AI seems to excel at color choice and in fact has made some quality complementary color choices here that I wouldn't have thought of: blue leaves instead of green as a complement to the orange. But it isn't yet so awesome at rendering cleanly. But it will be.

[CrazyMermaid]

Thank you that was very helpful. I have never experimented with AI. Perhaps I should so I can spot it more readily.

[MOM]

I‘m just putting this now into the room - be nice and don’t shoot me on the spot. 😉

I personally believe that most Zazzle customers don’t care that much how an image was created. They wanted a customizable, attractive product which will look nice in their house or is great to use as a gift and so fort. If original design art where important to them they wouldn’t purchase something printed anyhow, they would get the „Real Deal“ (meaning something painted, not printed) and also pay for it accordingly (hopefully).

[DM]

That's great for the customer. Not great at all for designers. Zazzle could decide tomorrow to use nothing but AI images on its products and cut us out completely. Zazzle would get all of the profit without having to give designers their cut. Just some electricity for the algorithms that create images.

As for the price, would you expect to pay the same for a piece of furniture from IKEA as one that was hand-crafted by someone who has been making furniture for 20 years? Designs made by an experienced artist should have more value. Zazzle could (and arguably should) be able to proudly say that their products feature designs made by people and not algorithms, and that's why they are more expensive. I understand that isn't likely to happen, but I can dream.

[MOM]

Well - where do you draw the line?

I said that before: I would love if Zazzle had a highlighted „Elite“ section for products featuring ONLY products displaying designs made from scratch. With no AI help at all. I wouldn’t list in that section simply because I know how much time goes into designs made from scratch. I used to paint in oil, had exhibitions and sold art work but I don’t wanted to put in that amount of time anymore into one piece (who may or may not sell). My paintings took me months, not hours. I‘m just totally honest here. I have bills to pay. So do most others I believe.

I do use software to create my images and I don’t feel bad about it. Maybe (once winter comes) I might try to create a few things from scratch (I have the skills, not necessarily the time though to do so).

I wished Zazzle had a checkbox to mark for AI created designs instead of us having to sacrifice one of our key words to indicate generativecontent.

[DM]

I draw the line at "no AI at all." Zazzle has to draw its own line, or perhaps have no line at all.  But if you are using AI images on products, it's a very short step for Zazzle to do the same without you. It wouldn't surprise me if PODs just become prompts that generate images for products in a few... years? Months?... and designers are left out in the cold.

[MOM]

This could be happening. Yes.

[Marblewave]

I understand what you’re saying, DM, but personally I don’t think this is likely at the moment. Computers do not have common sense or creativity in the way humans do. Just being able to create an AI image is currently still a novelty, but that will wear off, and quality will be most important.

Human language input makes a huge difference to what AI puts forth, and the skill of prompt writing will need to be honed to create ever better results. Would Zazzle as a company really have the time and inclination to take on such a task, for hundreds of thousands of products?

If anyone wants to use AI to create an image and get it printed on an item, they can already do that, Zazzle or not. Zazzle seems to thrive on its variety and inclusiveness of a wide variety of styles and creative methods. I think AI will be just another way of contributing to a design.

Thanks for starting the discussion, it's really interesting to hear the different viewpoints.

[MOM]

Very well said.

[DM]

"Would Zazzle as a company really have the time and inclination to take on such a task, for hundreds of thousands of products?"

Why would they have to? The site search becomes the prompt, the AI generates images based on that. The customer chooses an image, maybe adds text, and off they go. Zazzle could have some images of products, but wouldn't have to have a huge repository of images and products.

The quality of AI images has improved dramatically in a short time, and will continue to do so. Eventually the current shortcomings (like hands and text) will be fixed.

You're welcome for the discussion. It's gone a bit off-topic, but I don't mind.

[Barbara]

A long time ago when photography came onto the scene, painters' hair stood on end, believing they were seeing the end of their profession, but they pivoted into things like Impressionism. Painting didn't die, but it was, for sure, diminished in quantity. Those of you who are old enough to remember music created and performed by real musicians may have noticed that the sounds of today are a flat landscape. You think those singers have perfect pitch? That they and the instruments come in at the same micro-second? You're being fooled by producers using computers. So far, creative writing seems untouched, ChatGBT being expert only at empty word salad, but who knows how long before it's better trained?

Younger people are growing up having teethed on computers and now on AI. They hear it and see it all the time without necessarily recognizing it, and if they do recognize it, they likely feel it's quite normal and acceptable. Zazzle shouldn't, to my mind, feed that problem.

@DM, your idea of what future PODs could do, using search phrases to generate art for products, is appallingly possible.

Colorwash's Home

[KeegansCreation]

The quality of AI images will continue to improve until no amount of zooming in will reveal an error. But there is far more to Zazzle than good looking images (less true for other PODs). The sticking point is "maybe adds text" in this possible future. Customers take the path of least resistance. There will be intrepid customers who do that but most really don't want the hassle of trying to design their own baby shower invite based on a teddy bear graphic that the search term creates. It's even more of a hassle having to go into the design tool to finagle a photo to do anything other than fill the whole design space.

Or maybe AI will get to the point that it can design templates that merely need to be filled as well.

But whatever eventually happens, that is how it is. Trying to talk Zazzle out of ever using this tool is futile. Best to grab a surfboard and ride that wave until it becomes impossible to ride it anymore.

If we become redundant in the POD space, then in parallel the market for homemade things will increase as some people get sick of AI being everywhere and yearn for yarn and oil paint. The catch is that this won't help us on Zazzle or any POD. If AI eventually takes over all graphics, then the alternate market will require something that isn't a mere image but is a literal watercolor or oil painting or weaving.

This is in an inflection point and we are in the adapt or die part of it. That's why I use AI and then re-trace it with a pen tool as well as repurpose vintage art by deconstructing it, as many do for collages and patterns. This stuff is happening fast and there is nothing we can do to slow it down so we might as well use it.

[Barbara]

Your point is well taken, but if I were to utilize AI, even if it were in the thoughtful way you do it, I'd be going against long-held beliefs about what is and what isn't art. Granted, does designing for a POD align with my beliefs? Probably not.

Colorwash's Home

[Susang6]

Wow you draw a line on No AI ...that is just amazing...and I did not know that Zazzle was your website.  Zazzle is timely and trendy and I am glad that they offer a wide range of art.  There are customers that buy AI and other customers that buy paintings.  Its really not up to the designers to draw the line on what Zazzle should showcase or offer at their Website.   

Just so you know > AI art, one of the newest mediums for expression, is forbidden from copyright protection because it fails the human authorship requirement under current law. Despite several challenges to this, the Copyright Office holds fast—AI art lacks humanity. 

[kills]

you may want to look at this web page it give you keyword and title and descriptions of your images .it can add AI in the keywords or title or description. There is a free one and paid I use the paid but I started with the free just for me it ran out to fast and the PAID ONE is a great deal anyway this will help you with lots of stuff as for putting AI on you work check this out .https://www.phototag.ai/?via=tags

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[MOM]

@kills Thank you so much for this link - I‘ll give this a whirl. 👌🏽

[kills]

here i found this 

Use code KEYWORD50 for 50% off any purchase

[Susang6]

I made a suggested to Zazzle awhile ago to do a separate category for all AI generated products. Because customers that buy AI Art would prefer to shop that category rather scroll through other types of art.  Of course its not a bad idea to do a  painting category, illustrated graphic...all the art forms on a toolbar for customer to find what they are looking for.  Of course the marketplace should stay the same to show all popular and newest creations. 

[Lorren]

I don't think Zazzle would move to AI tomorrow... it's just not there yet. It's difficult to get AI to create exactly what you want without making some changes. Most Zazzle customers, I think, want to see what they like, add their customizations, and that's it. If they wanted to do the work, they'd design the item themselves, especially for some of the really simple designs.

That being said, AI is definitely transforming the landscape. We can choose to work with it, or not, but I don't think we can get rid of it entirely.

[Marblewave]

I agree with MOM. Obviously some flaws have been spotted in the image in question. In general though, if someone uses AI as a creative tool as part of producing a great image, then if it's good quality and fits the home page aesthetic Zazzle is looking for on that occasion, why shouldn't it be used?

[Mariholly]

Well, with the utmost respect, I use AI for my designs, for my descriptions, for my covers... I use AI, and I’m thrilled with it, and I’m not going to apologize for that. I specify in each design that I created it with the help of artificial intelligence, but I’ve also used my own creativity. Besides, I have many doubts about displaying and selling my true art here or on any other POD where, after much effort, the design could end up being stolen.

That said, I feel much more frustrated when I see a mug with an initial on Z's homepage, and it's even a featured design... Oh, blessed creativity of putting an initial on a mug!!! No offense intended.

So, I think things are evolving very quickly, maybe too quickly, and our profession is possibly one that may eventually disappear. We need to reinvent ourselves and take the best from each situation. In any case, I also firmly believe that at least for now, without humans, AI is nothing. It will surely evolve, but it will never surpass the intellectual greatness and creativity of human beings.

[Barbara]

@Mariholly: Aren't you supposed to use “generativecontent” as a tag when posting AI-generated artwork? Or is it okay if only part of the design was created that way?

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[Mariholly]

@Barbara Ahhh, I didn't know that. Thanks for the information; I will keep it in mind and update my labels. In my descriptions, I include: Note: This design has been created with the assistance of artificial intelligence.

[Barbara]

Oops. Better get on it! 🙂

Colorwash's Home

[MOM]

@Barbara   I didn’t know that in the beginning either. It’s kinda not made very publicly known to newbies in a clear understandable way. I know it’s says it somewhere in the fineprint but I never have seen it there - I learned of it in the forum here and now I still have to update some of my older designs, sigh. I wished Zazzle just had a box to check mark for those who use AI because than I could mark all my designs at once and be done with it, lol. I would not have kept going on Zazzle without AI, I still remember how long it took me to write descriptions for my eBay listings. I always hated that part most - writing the descriptions. And removing background from images was such a pain too in the old days. So much time down the drain…

[KeegansCreation]

I dug up the relevant page for all who are curious. 

Zazzle AI policy 

Per the generativecontent tag:  "All designs that contain any AI-generated content as part of the final composition should be appropriately tagged as “generativecontent”. This will help us track trends and usage in our marketplace."

the tl/dr of the AI Content Policy page is more or less to be quality conscious. It doesn't say "don't just mindlessly post every single thing that you render without so much as a zoom in to check for errors" but it sure does mean it. Also, just because DALL-E can make a pretty convincing Lamborghini or Coke bottle doesn't mean you can post it, which everybody here knows but they do spell it out.

[Mariholly]

@KeegansCreation Thanks! But then, according to that, if I create a merely illustrative photograph that the client will later change, should the label also be applied since it's part of the design? I've already added that label to all my products... Maybe I unintentionally unchecked one, but I had doubts when I was unchecking those with AI-generated photos that are templates. In fact, almost all my designs use AI-generated photos because I like doing it that way. And for the covers, should it also be indicated that they are AI-generated? It's crazy, right? Now I have more doubts... 😳

[KeegansCreation]

It says you have to label if the design is AI generated. But the template photo isn't part of the design and neither is the cover. For the record, I use AI generated template "photos" and cover backgrounds too and don't use the generativecontent tag in that case because they are not the design.

[Mariholly]

Yes, yes, I reread it... Sometimes I'm too impetuous...🤭

[Mariholly]

@KeegansCreation Ohhh wow, I reread the content... Only what is part of the final composition... Perfect.

@MOM Well, I need an AI just to write here since I don't speak English. You could call it a translator, but in the end, it's also artificial intelligence 🤭 It would be impossible for me to create content.

[MOM]

@Mariholly  You had me fooled, lol. 😝 But that‘s why I hate writing descriptions so much, English isn’t my native language either. 

[Barbara]

By chance, I just came across Disturbed's version of "The Sound of Silence" being analyzed by a musician/teacher I subscribe to. He was analyzing two different versions of it, one of them where David Draiman is performing live and the other where it was recorded. The live performance was filled with nuance and expression, a knock-your-socks-off rendition, whereas the recorded one sounded a bit dead. Pitch correction (or auto-tuning) was done on the latter. I quickly paired up this experience with what we're talking about here and found myself wondering about putting one's own little "flaws" into the artwork. Would it look better? Feel better? Is it worth a try?

Colorwash's Home

[KeegansCreation]

I do this. Although in my mind I'm removing flaws rather than adding them when I use the pen tool in Illustrator to draw over AI generated designs. Often in AI the overall composition is fine (which is why I generated it in the first place) but zooming in reveals wacky details which I re-do to my own liking. Inevitably my changing of these details will add my own sensibilities/flaws while retaining the overall AI composition and palette. AI is really good at palette.

[MOM]

So true - food for thoughts. I photograph a lot (only on my iPhone, I do not owe a camera) and sometimes I use my photos for a design. But the upscaling often changes things slightly (it changes expressions on faces, ads things to buildings which aren’t really there and so fort). I then have to tell my self „it’s just a picture - get over it!!“. As someone mentioned earlier here I think with time we all get so used to AI that we don’t even notice it often anymore and then when something REAL strikes us it’s an eye opener. Kinda. Like with your song example. If you ever visit San Francisco go to Bird & Beckett in Glenpark (a San Francisco neighborhood). It’s a book store (yes - with real books made from paper, lol) but they have several times a week life performances (mostly Jazz but also other kind of music). It’s a place to wind down and experience the real thing in our fast past time. I have a link to it on my website. B&B is a real gem. - don’t miss it if you ever have vacation in SF.