Designers Need Transparency on Third-Party Sales

[Jadendreamer13]

I just made another third-party sale. I want to know who is taking 50% of my royalties.

• Was it an affiliate sale?
• Another Ambassador listing my products on Pinterest?
• Was it a sale from a Zazzle email, promotion, or other marketing tactic?

We designers need to know who or what is grabbing half of our royalties, so we can plan our next steps. We can’t develop a sales strategy without this data.

We need transparency—not just a notation that a sale was a third-party sale.

[Cat]

I agree that more transparency would be nice, but the marketing fee (the 50% you referenced) always goes to Zazzle, it doesn't go to the 3rd party referrer. Third party referral payouts have not changed - it's still 15% of the net price like it was before the new ambassador program.

[tiffjamaica]

Yes, I also agree about transparency (and that the hike of up to 50% is excessive), but this is an important point.  The fee is used to offset the payment to affiliates/ambassadors (same thing), and even before the changes was 20% of third party sales.  But they still only ever get 15%.   I don't care to know each individual ambassador who's referring my products, but I would be interested in how often Zazzle is credited. I think it would be a good thing for them as well to let us know that they ARE marketing our products and these fees are not for nothing... although I still think the jump from 20 to (up to) 50% is harsh.

[YesItsRoy]

---

@Cat wrote:

I agree that more transparency would be nice, but the marketing fee (the 50% you referenced) always goes to Zazzle, it doesn't go to the 3rd party referrer. Third party referral payouts have not changed - it's still 15% of the net price like it was before the new ambassador program.

---

This is true, Zazzle takes the 35-50% on all sales.  But if it's a valid *affiliate* as a Third Party, Zazzle gives the 35-50% they take of our Royalty and put it toward the affiliate's 15% (i.e. Ambassador).  If Zazzle is "affiliating" as a "Third Party" (and they clearly are not a "Third Party"), then Zazzle takes that 35-50% of our Royalty and keeps it for themselves.

[Deb1]

Just plain sad we get pennies, and they get dollars......sad, sad, sad so unfair.  

[Jadendreamer13]

I want to know how specifically (and if) Zazzle marketed the product sold. Keeping that information from designers means we have no way of knowing if that sale was a direct result of Zazzle marketing. If it wasn’t, then no marketing fee should be applied.

And taking 50% of our royalties is not only excessive, it’s outrageous.

[SixSphinx]

View Insights splits your product sales into into "Zazzle Marketing & SEO" and a bunch of other sources including Zazzle marketplace searches and featured placement, so it sounds like that comes pretty close to answering your question. Even if not, I think we're extremely unlikely to get any more info than this.

[osea]

In my point of view the designer should see the third party Referrer/Ambassador reference in the stats. In this way maybe collaborations and overall improvements can arise. Where they go, alone?

Moreover, where the product start.

The new program works very well. Designers/Creators can have good revenues for their own promo, and Referrer/Ambassador are still wellcome. 

We have to refresh and go on.

[Jadendreamer13]

I understand what you’re saying, but I’m not seeing good revenue from my own promotions. I promote all my products on Pinterest and Instagram. In fact, my earnings have dropped drastically since the inception of the Ambassador program. The only person/entity that seems to be benefitting from that program is Zazzle.

[NigelSutherland]

I clicked your Instagram link in your profile and it comes up "User not found". Thought you should know.

[Jadendreamer13]

Thanks, Nigel. I’ll go fix that.

[LMGildersleeve]

This is just speculation and I have no way to knowing if this is how Zazzle's promotion links work but...

What if Zazzle promotes a creator A's wedding invitation on Google, the customer clicks on that ad and collections the Z cookie and then chooses creator B's wedding invitation to purchase? Are they getting 50% from the creator B's sale even though they didn't actively promote them?

When creators write of "promoting our products", who is "ours"? Zazzle can't promote every single creators products. So there must be a cookie attached to the original ad that would cover any product the customer chooses to buy from Zazzle.

Zazzle may not be promoting "your" products but they still pass along that advertising tax to us.

Just thinking out loud here.

[SJoy]

I mentioned something similar in another thread when this mess first rolled out. I don't want to be paying for someone else's limelight, especially when it is forced out of my own royalties. We are paying for someone else's marketing while our own products and stores are seeing less visibilty. Not only this but the fee for doing so is a hefty one that is creating a disaster across  the board no matter a designers pro level.

[osea]

I understand your point of view. Too managed by marketers, that quickly promote and sell going over anyone, without taking care much to overview, find the best and offer great quality of designs. But sometimes some boosting promos are needed too...

[jophb]

I believe Zazzle itself accounts for most of the 3rd party sales honestly.  I just had a huge order come in as 'none' (two orders from this customer in a week as 'none).... they cancelled the second order to change the quantity (thankfully higher), and that one came in as 3rd party.  My assumption is they used their order confirmation e-mail as the way to go in to cancel and re-order and Zazzle's e-mail cookie took over and they got the credit.  Apparently that issue has happened for many years.  These are the ones that feel most un-fair because they have all the control over the system that gives them a double dip on the sale.

[ColsCreations]

That's exactly the situation they address in the updated Ambassador Program FAQs. 

NEW! Q: A Customer ordered my Product (not a Referred Sale), then cancelled and
reordered the same item a few minutes later, so why does the second order show as a
Third-Party Referral and give me a lower Royalty?
A: It’s possible the initial sale was not via a Self-Promotion or Cross-Promotion Link; the Customer
may have originally found a Product organically (i.e., without clicking through a Referral link).
When they later canceled their Order and placed a new one, they likely clicked back to the Site
through one of our paid ads, which triggered the Third-Party Referral.

If they manage to come in as NONE, then there is no cookie set so if they click back in via a Z email Z now becomes the referrer with their "cookie" protected for the next two weeks. I would be willing to accept the reasoning in that if it weren't for the fact that this is also in the FAQs:

NEW! Q: Can you earn a Self-Promotion Referral Commission on your own purchase?
A: You can, however, you need to be the original referrer within the Referral window to receive
your Referral Commission. The intent of the Ambassador Program is to promote and refer
Customers to the Site. [red highlight added by me]

What happens with re-orders isn't exactly the intent of the program either; the customer has already found their way to Zazzle, made an account, and actually placed an order before picking up Z's cookie on the re-order. They justify that but then admonish us for using the same referral system on the occasion we buy something and are of course our own referrer. I could shrug this off too except with the much bigger hit to royalties now on 3rd Party sales, it's hard to ignore the double-standard. Z's not going to change the referral system practices, but they could remove the double-standard by removing that one red line from the FAQs.

[jophb]

Totally! And I wouldn't be as upset if the customer DID in fact come through an ad or e-mail LATER. But the fact that it came in within an hour means they had to have used the order confirmation e-mail to add the cookie. Not like they would have gone off-site and clicked through an ad in this situation. It's commical to think that a person ordered, cancelled to make a switch, and then magically went and clicked on an Ad to get back to Zazzle when they 1. already knew how to get to Zazzle directly, and 2. probably have in in the browser history to auto populate the page.  There should be an 'anti-cookie' window for like 24 hours or something in these situations haha.

[Deb1]

Can Bots collect our work and post it. I know another site I use has Bots that collect a library of our work and you can see it in the number of view and the state they are in one is California and there are many more. I use watermarks on my stuff on that site. The Bots are computer driven by I think one is Google. Can places use Bots and post our work on social media and make a profit?

[YesItsRoy]

This whole bit that you wrote, but especially this:

NEW! Q: Can you earn a Self-Promotion Referral Commission on your own purchase?
A: You can, however, you need to be the original referrer within the Referral window to receive your Referral Commission. The intent of the Ambassador Program is to promote and refer Customers to the Site. [red highlight added by me]

and:

They justify that but then admonish us for using the same referral system on the occasion we buy something and are of course our own referrer. I could shrug this off too except with the much bigger hit to royalties now on 3rd Party sales, it's hard to ignore the double-standard. Z's not going to change the referral system practices, but they could remove the double-standard by removing that one red line from the FAQs.

---

Well, of course, I'm my own Referrer and what seems to be lost is that if I'm buying a Product -- mine or anyone else's -- I am the CUSTOMER.   

Earning a Referral on our own purchases is a very small benefit in the big picture.  I just ran my numbers the other day, and I think it was 87% of my sales are "referred."  Those aren't Designer links.  They're Zazzle's.  I know of no other affiliate program where the seller affiliates for itself and overrides affiliate links.  Not saying it doesn't happen; that I don't know of it.  

Gosh, I used to love this place. 😥

[Deb1]

I'm sad because I do love Zazzle and its products. However, the fees are just too high and cuts us down to pennies not very fair. How sad.

[Deb1]

Just plain sad. 

[Susang6]

Zazzle's marketing fees require creators to increase their royalties to compensate. Initially, I hesitated, believing a higher price would be less competitive. However, with the significant number of third-party sales, these fees have reduced earnings to mere pennies.
To offset the impact, I’ve adjusted my royalties to 10%, 16%, 19%, and 20.6%. I’ve chosen not to go higher, as I feel that would make pricing too steep for online shoppers. (products that are expensive like curtains, area rugs, luggage are 10%) 

[OakAndPine]

Yes, most of my sales are 3 rd party sales now. All instant downloads especially. Loosing money on all sales. When is Zazzle giving us clarity on this?

[Deb1]

So unfair. Who is the 3rd party because they are making the money. I cannot find the information either. Sad, sad, sad, so unfair so disappointing. 

[KittyKat]

I reached out to Zazzle regarding 3rd-party sales on Direct-Only Custom products and after 3 weeks this is the response I received from them...

"I've received an update from our Community Team informing that there are a number of limitations that can prevent a referral from being successful (these are generally caused on the customer’s end).

There is no way on our end to tell exactly why the referral was not obtained. 

It is also important to note that the referral program is a reward system for Creators who have brought new Customers to Zazzle and not a benefit for helping those who have already discovered Zazzle. 

The most common limitations are as follows:

1.    The customer has an ad blocker installed on their browser.

2.    The customer changes their browser in the time between clicking the link and completing the purchase.

3.    The customer changes their device, i.e. clicking the link on mobile but placing the order on desktop.

4.    Changing domains, i.e. going from zazzle.com to zazzle.ca.

5.    The referral cookie has expired between being clicked on initially and the order being placed (cookies register to the user’s browser for up to 7 days).

6.    The Customer contacted the Creator but have already been on the Zazzle site. Examples of this are customers reaching out via chat, but this can also happen if a customer reaches out via other contact channel

Unfortunately Community does not have the means to investigate these inquiries as there are too many variables and we cannot retroactively apply a referral.

If you have any further questions or concerns, please do let me know by replying to this email and I will be glad to help. 

Thanks for choosing Zazzle, have a great weekend."

[YesItsRoy]

---

@KittyKat wrote:

It is also important to note that the referral program is a reward system for Creators who have brought new Customers to Zazzle and not a benefit for helping those who have already discovered Zazzle. 

By this logic, every email Zazzle sends with their own RF ID in it is in violation of the spirit of their own policy.

- You abandoned [thing] in your cart > not a new customer

- You ordered this [thing] > not a new customer

- This [thing] is back in stock > not a new customer

- Your [thing] has been shipped > not a new customer

- Here's [things] on sale > not a new customer 

- And more [things]...

Unless Z is violating CAN-SPAM and sending emails to people who've never been to the site.  🤔  And I don't think they are. 

[socialitedesign]

To me "It is also important to note that the referral program is a reward system for Creators who have brought new Customers to Zazzle and not a benefit for helping those who have already discovered Zazzle", sounds like Zazzle puts a cookie on any existing customer's profile so that Zazzle gets the referral.  It's only new customers that may come in as none or as self-referred.  This could be the reason why most every sale coming in now is 3rd-party.

[tamirazdesigns]

This has been bothering me also since seeing this.  Every referral should count that you bring in whether a new customer,  or one who already came to Zazzle or purchased items from Zazzle.   Any items you share to Pinterest,  etc. should count as a referral back to you from that shared link, as you promoted those items!  

[YesItsRoy]

I don't know whether directly, but indirectly, absolutely.

If a user happens to find Zazzle through, say, organic search results in Google or Bing or maybe someone who isn't a designer posts a product on Pinterest or Facebook and someone clicks through, and that user doesn't have an account and the link doesn't have an RF ID (no cookie set), user gets the "splash screen" offering 15% off for giving Zazzle their email address.  That's when the fun begins -- user gets their first email with a link to click back to the site to get the 15% discount, and Zazzle's cookie would be set right then.  

And if they don't go for that ^that discount, as soon as they create an account -- no matter how they got here -- follow-up emails for nearly everything under the sun include Zazzle's RF ID.

And for existing users with accounts, they're getting daily Zazzle emails.  So even if one of our RF ID is set from day one, on day 15, they're going to click a Zazzle link with Zazzle's ID, and that's why we rarely have "None" and "Self" sales.  We can't compete with Zazzle sending daily emails to their entire user base.  On top of that, Zazzle makes ad buys on feeds of our best sellers (not specific designs necessarily; but "popular" product feeds that we've SEO'd well and sell), and we just can't compete.  They have millions of links to our hundreds or thousands. 

The 14-day hard lock on Referral IS an improvement over the prior 7-day hard lock and, certainly, the 30-minute lock before that, but, honestly, if we weren't competing with the behemoth that Zazzle is, we'd have a decent number of Referrals for making any effort.  

[SimplyDesigned]

To add more info to the marketing email part, lots of places also send out emails when you leave something in your cart or cancel a purchase. Something to the tune of "you have items in your cart, did you forget? Have 10% off on us" or when a customer cancels something "we're sorry your experience wasn't satisfactory, here's 10% off on a future purchase". If Zazzle does either one or both of those, guaranteed to have a referral code attached.

[Van]

I think cookies can be set by images in emails, when the image downloads from a server. In a case like that I'd assume the email recipient wouldn't even have to click on any links to get a cookie - just opening the email be enough. From what I've read about how this works, that's why some people disable downloading email images from servers. I'm NOT saying that is going on here but there are probably advertisers out there that use that technology.

No more views/sales that I'm getting anymore combined with the new customer theory, I'm not sure it's worth my time and effort to keep trying to market any products. For the record, things started going downhill for me around the same time we were asked to created mockups etc

I'm hoping Z will give designers more clarification on a lot of things soon.

[ColsCreations]

5. The referral cookie has expired between being clicked on initially and the order being placed (cookies register to the user’s browser for up to 7 days).

That's incorrect/outdated info. One of the April 1st changes was that it's now 14 days instead of 7. Your referral marker is not supposed to be able to be overridden by anyone else's until Day 15. And 45 days if they somehow manage not to pick up a "cookie" from anyone else after Day 14.