Customers Buy one Invite to Print Elsewhere

[Deb]

Twice in 2 weeks that I know of.. (not counting the  number of times others have purchased ONE invitation) - I'm sure this goes on Far more than we know..  I remember back in the day  Zazzle had a 10 invitation limit  and this sort of thing didn't happen - if someone wants a sample (what ever happened to those anyways?)  IMHO Zazzle should allow ONE invitation sales ONLY with the sample text - this way the customer can see what it looks like  but doesn't have it all filled out to print..   This top one was from just a few minutes ago.. I flat asked her if she planned on printing it locally and she said yes - 

AND... 

This was from 2 weeks ago.. same basic thing..  these are Only the ones I am aware of..  not good.. Please we need to do something in the way of one invitation sales that protects us.. like I said either  a minimum or  NON customizable text samples. 

[WittyBetty]

It may be easier to explain using books as example: when you buy a book, you buy a copy, not any right to the text it contains. In other words, you buy the right to read the book, not to print more copies and sell them for profit. I think, everyone would agree with that? Similarly, when you buy an art print, you buy a copy and the right to look at it every day, but not the right to print and sell copies.

[Windy]

I will try this next time it comes up!

[SapphireDesigns]

I am BEYOND infuriated now.  As I stated in previous posts in this thread,  I've had multiple occasions where customers have purchased ONE invitation that was customized (knowing they're going to print elsewhere) BUT TODAY.... I had a customer - that I had worked with through chat over the last several days to design a CUSTOM INVITATION for her graduation.  She even made it out to be needed asap because she's graduating in May...  I see this morning that she purchased the invitation I designed BUT ONLY ONE CUSTOMIZED COPY!!!!!   😡   If she's in such a hurry, I doubt she is ordering it to view quality and then place another order.  So it upsets me when people do this with my existing designs, but to use me and my time to get her something custom and basically steal to have printed on her home printer or whatever.. disgusting.  

I am debating on whether to say something to her in the chat or not.  Any thoughts?   

Also - ZAZZLE!!!  Do something about this!!!  They should NOT be able to purchase ONE invitation after they customize it!  If they want to view quality, they can order with the sample text. 

[369]

My personal opinion is that you shouldn't confront the customer with it yet. Wait until you know for certain that they have done what you think they have done. Use that time constructively by pushing Zazzle to change their policy, and if not, why not? It seems to me that with issues like this, Zazzle creators have a far better understanding of the problems, and a far better idea of how to easily solve such problems, than Zazzle management do. Their silence on such important issues is deafening!

[CatsEyeViewGift]

I imagine if you confront a customer, you may get Zazzle angry at you and you could lose your account.  I'm just guessing, but I know the way business works.  What that person did is horrible - but are you willing to chance losing your account over it?  Zazzle has minimums on so many things, they should really have them on invites. 

[369]

It wouldn't be difficult for Zazzle to offer a single 'sample' invite option, which simply has 'SAMPLE' diagonally printed on the product. Job done! Other than that, a minimum of 10 invites. What's not to like. If Zazzle doesn't implement something like this very soon, then the real problem is not the people taking advantage of Zazzle (and the creators), but Zazzle management, for not taking care of the problem when such easy solutions are available.

[driveindustries]

Wonderful idea!!!

[SapphireDesigns]

There is a post I came across here https://community.zazzle.com/t5/ask-a-question/free-zazzle-wedding-invitations/td-p/15027 where the moderator mentioned the test run on "sample" invitations that they did (and discontinued) a while back.   I'm wondering... should we all chime in on this post or create a new one because there hasn't been a peep from a moderator here and I'm really not sure who to contact to have this issue addressed.  As you said, their silence is deafening.  Either go back to providing free *uncustomized* samples or make a 10 invite minimum purchase.  Or, as was also mentioned here, a watermark on customized orders of one invitation.  It would save us all a lot of lost earnings.  

[369]

There's been a lot of posts today on this issue, and being the last day before the Easter weekend AND ALSO payment day for earnings, I think we should wait until next week before making any decisions on a new post, although the idea has a lot of merit. I'm thinking a title such as 'Zazzle Creators are insisting on a minimum invite order of 10 and 'SAMPLE' mark on single invite orders', and then ask as many creators as possible to Kudos the initial post.

[Scott]

A new post is not necessary. Moderation team has forwarded this discussion along to stakeholders, and it's been brought up in meetings already. I can't comment on where things stand currently, or what actions might be taken in the future (I'm not in all meetings), but the best course of action from here would be to keep all related comments in one conversation (probably this one). Splintering things into multiple different conversations will only make things more difficult to track.

[369]

Understood. Thanks for updating everyone on where it stands.

[ElizabethR]

I thought of two options for creators to use to combat this issue. I have also thought of the negative problems with this first option. The first option could be for all or most of you to raise your royalties high enough to cover the average amount you lose if someone buys one and prints elsewhere. Then let customers know you will provide a direct link to the invitation with a reduced royalty that will take into account what they paid for the one invitation. Let the  customers know why you have had to do this. Then, add the watermark. Zazzle might then help find a better solution.

The other solution can't be objected to by Zazzle because they tell us that we have to defend our designs ourselves by sending DMCA notices. Zazzle will also not print anything that might be challenged by a copyright claim. So, when you receive a one invitation order, send an email followed by a print notice to all printers in the city and state listed on the order explaining why they shouldn't print an invitation with that design. Then add the watermark for the print-at-home bunch. 

Just throwing out some DIY solutions, since that seems to be the only options you have right now. Otherwise, you are allowing people to reduce the worth of your work to $0.

[StarvingArtist]

Just wanted to note in this conversation that in the past 10 days I have had 3 different orders for only 1 copy of the exact same invitation. All different customers in different parts of the US, each order for 1. It is for an invite that by nature you would NEVER need just one. Discouraging, because I know if they were actually ordering, they'd need multiples for this party, not just 1. 

I support the idea of allowing ordering one (because people do want to see samples sometimes, before investing lots of money) but I think perhaps there could be a Creator choice (like a toggle switch in the design area) where we can select for the design to be "obscured" with a large 'Sample' word across the face, or maybe with a watermark that reads "Do Not Reproduce" or some such - when the customer orders only 1. (If people really want to work hard, they can still figure out a way to get around a watermark, but the least we can do is to make it hard for people to steal.) However, if they order more than 1, no watermark.

I have occasionally designed things on the 5x7 flat card invitation that IS NOT an invitation - it's perhaps a specialty card or some other type of special printout) where people would only need one. So for that reason, I DO NOT support the idea of making a 10 card minimum. Not every '5x7 flat card invitation' IS designed as an invitation. A toggle to allow the designer to choose would allow the best of both. Just my 2 cents.

[369]

Yes, I'm sure adding a special print on top of the design of invitations (such as "SAMPLE") if only one is ordered, is the solution. As far as designers opting to add the Zazzle watermark to the actual design online is highly problematic. Any designer who wants their designs promoted outside of Zazzle, such as on Pinterest, or on search engines such as Google images, will get an almost zero result because their design is watermarked. That is why I would say for most designers, watermarking their designs is a very bad idea. However, printing 'SAMPLE' on single order invitations, with a clear notice to customers who do order just one, perfectly deals with this specific issue, which so many invitation creators seem to be concerned about. This is surely a solution that Zazzle can implement without that much effort. There is no real negative for any 'genuine' customer, and a clear massive advantage to both creators and Zazzle as far as earnings and profits are concerned. The sooner it is done the better.

[Scott]

You raise some good points here, but when I look at your royalties for the month of April I see something slightly different:

- one order is qty 10

- one order was qty 1, which was later re-ordered in qty 50

- one order is qty 1, and the design was heavily customized and probably used for a different purpose.

Your final paragraph brings up a very good point. Keeping the minimum order quantity as low as possible allows everyone the flexibility to use products as they wish. It's not totally unusual for a customer to heavily customize and repurpose a design to suit their needs. Now, should we allow Creators to set their own minimum order quantity? That's a good question. These conversations are ongoing...

[369]

Yes Scott, I agree with you about giving the customer as much choice as possible, and of course, many customers are genuine in purchasing one invitations only. If Zazzle has any long-term data on how certain suggestions being made may have a negative affect on customer purchases, it would be very useful to bring them into this discussion. Of course, the question of public vs. creator (plus Zazzle management) only forums, becomes relevant when such company information is being discussed. That's for another thread.

However, as we know from a number of designers who have studied their own product sales and actions on the wider Internet, and made comments in this thread, there are also those who are certainly buying one invitation and going elsewhere. I think I speak for everyone who is concerned about this, that "a stitch in time saves nine", and that if this is not nipped in the bud in some way, it may become a problem that is not reversible. The Internet is viral by nature, and the longer that consumers are allowed get away with something like breaching copyright, the more they will feel empowered. Nobody wants Zazzle to be seen as an easy target do they? One question that hasn't been raised is, "does Zazzle have a dedicated member of staff who goes after people online breaching copyright of Zazzle creators?" Perhaps a dedicated email that Z creators could use to inform Zazzle management of any of their designs being copied on Etsy etc could be set-up? An email to Etsy etc corporate from Zazzle corporate would obviously have far more impact than from an individual. Just a thought.

On your first point, the reason why I am interested in this topic is actually because of my affiliate promoting of Zazzle products along with a general community concern for Zazzle creators. As I am always working out new ways of promoting other people's Zazzle products on the Internet (for over ten years now), I feel I have become somewhat of an expert over those years, in regards to the good and bad of promoting Zazzle. Indeed, I emailed ProDesigner Support on my concerns about the introduction of watermarks immediately they were produced, and made it clear that creators should be made fully aware of the serious promotional downsides of attaching watermarks to their designs, but I had no response. In other words, I don't think an issue needs to affect me personally, in order for me to weigh in on the forums. I'm sure you agree, we should all look out for each other.

I think this is a very worthwhile thread, and I agree with you that offering creators the choice to decide their minimum order, may be a very good solution, but playing devil's advocate, is that being suggested because it is the simplest solution? Is the word 'SAMPLE' printed on a single invitation off the table from Zazzle's point of view, or could that be integrated alongside the creator choice solution you mentioned?

[StarvingArtist]

Thanks, @Scott for looking at my stats. I did miss that one of the 'singles' did come back to order, however I also see that I had 2 more additional 'single' orders for the same product in March, different people. 

Also - excellent and valid point about the heavy customizing. Since we Creators can't see exactly how the customers are customizing - (we only see the 'c' that they actually did do it) - we have no idea what changes they did to a point where it's no longer an invite. So that's something I'd never know. Personally, I'm all for letting customers do whatever they want - it's their party! I just really would rather they don't steal my work on the way to said party.

Honestly, I do not spend an inordinate amount of time policing the 'single' orders to see if they ever come back to actually order. Sometimes I see they did and am thankful, but whenever I see a single invite I do wonder if it's a lost sale. Maybe they ordered lots of singles from lots of Creators, and my design just didn't 'win' their order once they saw it in person. There's no way we on this end can ever know. I've had singles across other invite styles as well, and I've gotten to a point of resignation about it.

[Deb]

Another example of  likely  print elsewhere  order -  just yesterday and today 

It would be Wonderful if somehow Zazzle could implement a way to tag orders such as these in our reports so we could easily see IF they come back and order a real order - 

[369]

I think you're probably correct on those Deb. That's good evidence. Particularly the second one. They can't print the envelopes, so order 10, but can print the invite, so order just 1.

[MarilynR]

About a week ago, another creator posted a screenshot of a series of four single orders. I did one search with all four names cities and states and found a photographer and florist. So I searched each name separately with the word wedding. I found this website connected with many and the businesses. So I did a search with the names, locations, and the website. I found couples registered with the website but it looked like they might already be married. So I thought maybe the website was sending thank you notes but I thought sending them in Zazzle packaging was tacky.

Then there was the conversation with someone saying he was a contractor. I am used to writing clients buying articles cheap and reselling them for more to bloggers.  I just took a look at the website. Here it is.

https://www.theknot.com/paper/invitations/wedding

Here is their wedding invitation page, some of you might want to check it out.

https://www.theknot.com/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Search+%7C+Membership+%7C+Oth...

[369]

Anyone with concerns about their designs being used on the site mentioned by MarilynR [https://www.theknot.com/paper/invitations/wedding] should not immediately approach the company with a complaint, but should first take screenshots of any website pages with their design on, and collect any other evidence first, and then post their findings in this discussion. That is really what should be done with any copyright breach discoveries online. A company like theknot.com clearly makes a great deal of money. If they are ripping designs from a number of Z creators, then those creators can all hire a lawyer to sue them, but evidence will be needed. If they get spooked by a number of designers, they will simply take down those designs. If you do find your design on such a site, which - unlike Etsy etc - is obviously directly involved in any copyright illegalities that are found, you might also think about ordering one, in order to have the physical evidence of the invitation and the order process too. One designer who has found their design copied may have problems taking on the company, but a number of designers, all with evidence, would not only be able to sue the company for their losses, but may also be able to close the company down. Obviously, this is all just hypothetical until any creators actually state that their designs are being advertised, and can show that they have not been paid when an order is made on that website.

[Ellvineblue]

Hello,

I had one customer who bought one invitation only, I thought she would return soon but she didn't.  I agree to have a minimum of buying 10 cards, it would limit the damage done to us. Also the one sample card sent should be with our text, so they can't print it somewhere else. 

[Connie]

I'm really surprised that the printing places actually print the invitations that are so clearly copyright violations! I've had old family photographs that they refused to copy because I didn't have a release from the photographer!

[JB]

that would be larger printing companies, but there are plenty of independently owned print shops (one of my good friends has one, and more than once he has been sent a screen shot from here of MY designs of people asking him to print and/or recreate it.... just happened again this week) or places like office depot who hire anyone to run the printing department who dont care, dont notice, don't look, etc. also lots of self-serve stations in UPS and FEDEX stores.

Also people who are scanning/copying and printing at home.

Also these could be people who are screenshotting the invitation and sending it via text or adding it to a digital invite service and then ordering one hard copy for their baby book etc.

We can't stop everyone, but I agree there should be a 10 invite minimum like there used to be. I get singles sales nearly every day. Some do come back and ultimately buy a significant amount so I know they are testing paper and print quality, but I dont track it enough to  know how often. I try to just exhale and accept that there is no perfect scenario.

I just really hope Zazzle and the shareholders they defer to are thinking about the lifeblood of this site and will do what is best for the designers (creators) first to keep us here and excited to continue to contribute. It's hard to keep up in this competitive ever-changing digital world, but that doesn't mean we have to acquiesce to every bad thing consumers want to get away with.

[almdrs]

Why worry? What can we do about it?

Unless there's an option to only accept a minimum order of 5, 10, 20... ?

[CrazyMermaid]

Minimum orders won't stop thieves either. If someone is having 150 guests, they can buy 5 or 20 and take it to Staples for the rest. 

[driveindustries]

Customers don't need to buy one anymore. With watermarks turned off (by Zazzle) they can screen cap a customized invite/business cards and print them elsewhere!

[Angel]

@Deb 😥 I feel for you.

You might want to mention to such customers that it is illegal for a printer to print something they or their customer doesn't have the copyright to. Yes, they can (if they want) say they made technical changes in order to print it (colors and such so it looks good printed) and keep that copy as their copyrighted design. Thankfully I haven't met any that did that.

But the customer should have to prove they are the copyright owner or otherwise have the right to get it printed. And if you had supplied her with an emailed copy she could have used that to say she had the right to have it printed.

I know people who think that as long as they are using it for personal use - such as a YouTube tutorial - it's okay to go grab an image. And others who think that as long as they have made a change they have the right to do that.

It's very hard to keep on top of everything.

You asked good questions to your customer.

Have a good day. 😊

[klstock]

Any updates to this problem? I run into this also and posted about it on the old forum. 

I had someone recently ask me via chat if I would sell the artwork in a wedding invitation for them to download. I said it was not available for download. Then they ordered singles of the invitation - 4 times. And then they ordered one single wedding menu. I think they are customizing the invitations perhaps to say different things to use for different purposes to have printed elsewhere. They asked about buying the artwork for the purpose of putting it on other things, then they do this so it seems dubious... 

Aside from the example above, it has happened several times where someone buys only one invitation after asking if they could buy the art for digital download. I have seen threads on this in the past but haven't seen any updates as to what is being done about this. 

I have seen several things suggested: such as not allowing customization when someone is purchasing only 1; setting a minimum number such as they must purchase 5 or 10 as a minimum order, etc. But have seen nothing further on what is being done about it. 

[klstock]

I came back to give an update to this since I can't find a way to edit it... in my example above the person responded in the chat and is NOT reproducing it elsewhere -  she is ordering it on different paper styles/quality and different corner shapes but I did not notice that. So in that example it is a legit customer with no bad intent! 

But I have had this happen periodically where people order just one after having asked if they could buy the artwork for digital download, so it is an issue (just not in this last case). 

I have also had legit orders where someone will buy one wedding invitation and then a month later return and place a full order. I know not everyone has dubious intentions - I would just like to know if anything is being done to help in the cases where they do. 

[jlwdesigns]

Another major problem is they can screenshot the changes and never actually buy the invitations and then use them somewhere else. I think their should be a solution like facebook has where if a screenshot is taken that domhow a message is sent to you saying a person from this ip address took a screenshot and then it sends that person on their account the same message. That would prevent screenshot stealing. Also if you don't want people being able to go print somewhere outside zazzle don't allow digital downloads. That is clearly asking to get it printed somewhere else or send digitally and you won't make a lot of money. 

i am thinking about stopping the digital version when i set my new invitations and cards up in my store.

[klsantillo]

It’s happened to me several times this year. Very disappointing.

[Moses_IAm]

As a buyer of dazzle products and as someone who is looking to take my design else where. If there was an option to buy or lease a design and use it else where this may balance things out. I’d be totally willing to pay for your design but buy the cards elsewhere. I had to do something similar I when created my customized cards I purchased on here. I bought designs from vector and I am able to use them anywhere. I love the design I have found on zazzle but zazzle does not offer embossed/raised lettering. Being how this adds such a clean look and makes your card pop compared to others it’s a necessity for my next set of cards. I would like to print another set of cards with the same design but have the lettering embossed. I can’t do that here on zazzle so it forces me to go else where.  I would prefer there be an easy and payable way for me to do it here but there is not so wouldnt the next step be to just transfer it with my own means as these people have? I’m not in agreement with the people who support push, or give people the tools and ideas for pirating content and designs. Although I’m understanding from the position that I’m now in. What would you suggest be done?

[Scott]

So, good timing with this question. We're preparing to launch our new Instant Downloads feature which will allow you to download a digital version of a card. Creators will decide for themselves if they want to allow this, so not all designs will be available for download, but so far response has been quite good. I can't give a timetable for launch, but it will be very soon.

Also, I've forwarded along the idea of offering embossed cards on our site.

[Angel]

@ Moses_IAm 

I am curious if you have found the option you're looking for on another website? Where you can purchase the art design by itself? If you have found that option would you please share which site as I would like to read their sales agreement and see if I'd like to become one of their members.

On the other hand, the new digital downloads that Zazzle will be providing seems like it would fit your needs.

I agree embossed designs offer a next level experience. But whatever your desires, bootlegging, pirating designs is not the way to do things. Would you someone to steal your designs?

[Moses_IAm]

No and I agree which is why I’m reaching out.

[SandyMDesigns]

I know this conversation is a year old. But I have many single invitations that have sold. I do feel that Zazzle should set at least a 10 limit on it for the same reason as mentioned.